Comments on: Java = Insufficient Suffering http://doodleplex.com/glassmaze/java-insufficient-suffering/ Every jumbled pile of person Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:54:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: lapsed cannibal http://doodleplex.com/glassmaze/java-insufficient-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-668 lapsed cannibal Fri, 03 Feb 2006 06:43:03 +0000 http://doodleplex.com/wordpress/?p=356#comment-668 <p>bob - I can't argue with anything you're saying. I wholeheartedly agree that the more languages you learn, the better, and that you need to challenge people in order to unlock their full potential. What I object to is the half ascetic / half sadistic nature of some of the classes I took in college: where they seemed to fetishize the act of inflicting intellectual agony <em>for it's own sake</em>. This inevitably made getting through these courses an act of survival, rather than one of education, enlightenment, or edification.</p> bob – I can’t argue with anything you’re saying. I wholeheartedly agree that the more languages you learn, the better, and that you need to challenge people in order to unlock their full potential. What I object to is the half ascetic / half sadistic nature of some of the classes I took in college: where they seemed to fetishize the act of inflicting intellectual agony for it’s own sake. This inevitably made getting through these courses an act of survival, rather than one of education, enlightenment, or edification.

]]> By: bob http://doodleplex.com/glassmaze/java-insufficient-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-667 bob Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:13:47 +0000 http://doodleplex.com/wordpress/?p=356#comment-667 <p>I could be convinced that teaching students the gory details of C does not make people good programmers. I can also accept that one can learn to be a good Java programmer without learning C. But, learning several languages teaches one a lot about computer science, which does have value. If you only have Java under your belt, you have no idea of what underlying knowledge you may be missing. Consider human language: people who speak multiple languages gain a better understanding of even their own native language, when they have studied others.</p> <p>As far as putting programmers through the ringer before setting them free, I am more concerned. I have worked with a great many programmers who could not design a performant and maintainable system that meets the requirements to save their lives. Many can not diagnose the simplest of problems - this leaves others of us having to do their work. Lets say a customer calls in with a critical problem. Johnny-Slept-through-All-CS-Classes gets assigned the issue. He takes forever studying the code and sends a few fixes that don't work. Finally skilled labor has to come in, after the customer has gone critical and try to save the day.</p> <p>I am not saying that the CS people have to be killed as part of the curriculum, but lets face it - programming is becoming a very competitive field. Once the US salaries bottom out and become equivalent with those in India and China (AND THEY WILL), we are going to be competing on raw skill. Not understanding CS fundamentals could really count against one in that market.</p> I could be convinced that teaching students the gory details of C does not make people good programmers. I can also accept that one can learn to be a good Java programmer without learning C. But, learning several languages teaches one a lot about computer science, which does have value. If you only have Java under your belt, you have no idea of what underlying knowledge you may be missing. Consider human language: people who speak multiple languages gain a better understanding of even their own native language, when they have studied others.

As far as putting programmers through the ringer before setting them free, I am more concerned. I have worked with a great many programmers who could not design a performant and maintainable system that meets the requirements to save their lives. Many can not diagnose the simplest of problems – this leaves others of us having to do their work. Lets say a customer calls in with a critical problem. Johnny-Slept-through-All-CS-Classes gets assigned the issue. He takes forever studying the code and sends a few fixes that don’t work. Finally skilled labor has to come in, after the customer has gone critical and try to save the day.

I am not saying that the CS people have to be killed as part of the curriculum, but lets face it – programming is becoming a very competitive field. Once the US salaries bottom out and become equivalent with those in India and China (AND THEY WILL), we are going to be competing on raw skill. Not understanding CS fundamentals could really count against one in that market.

]]> By: lapsed cannibal http://doodleplex.com/glassmaze/java-insufficient-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-666 lapsed cannibal Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:52:57 +0000 http://doodleplex.com/wordpress/?p=356#comment-666 <p>Z - Yeah, I think that's exactly right: our minds just aren't equipped to remember pain. A good defensive mechanism, I guess, but it inevitably leads to articles like this.</p> Z – Yeah, I think that’s exactly right: our minds just aren’t equipped to remember pain. A good defensive mechanism, I guess, but it inevitably leads to articles like this.

]]> By: Z http://doodleplex.com/glassmaze/java-insufficient-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-665 Z Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:43:13 +0000 http://doodleplex.com/wordpress/?p=356#comment-665 <p>Amen. I love to read Joel as well, but on this one I think he crossed the line into disbelief. Kind of like the natural ability for women to forget the pain and uncomfortable affects of childbirth, and their willingness to concive again because of it.</p> <p>Clearly, Joel either had a very different experience in college, or he has forgotten the horror of Data Structure 204 and Operating Systems 409.</p> Amen. I love to read Joel as well, but on this one I think he crossed the line into disbelief. Kind of like the natural ability for women to forget the pain and uncomfortable affects of childbirth, and their willingness to concive again because of it.

Clearly, Joel either had a very different experience in college, or he has forgotten the horror of Data Structure 204 and Operating Systems 409.

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